Anti-Foreigner Demo In Saitama

[xenomorph42]

[quote="nottu"]You can see the reaction to it right here in FG world. Immediately, a bunch of FG politicos emotionally react confusing the illegal immigration issue with the spirit of the demonstration. They are two separate issues. The demonstrators should pick more appropriate targets - there are enough]

Let's take the emotion out of it for a sec. Yea, I understand the parents broke the law and they should be punished "to a point" but what about the daughter? She should also be deported? And go where? How? She was born and raised in Japan, now she has to be deported to a country she knows nothing about, no friends, no nothing, has to start all over again. Don't you think it's a bit messed up?
I'm for legal immigration, I don't agree with people breaking the law, but sometimes you need to look at each individual case by case and making a judgement based on his/her circumstances.
The child paying for the mistakes of the parents, how pathetic is that? These Right-wing nut jobs can protest all day, if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, so be it. If every and I mean, every FG left Japan given the climate of Japan's social, financial and future status, they will most definitely up the creek without a paddle. Japanese still think that they can make it in the 21st century without the help of the outside world, kinda a pre-80's mentality.
A few years ago former Japanese PM Koizumi was asked about a raising, economic powerhouse China and he confidently said that "China is NOT a threat to Japan"
This kind of attitude will surely seal Japan's fate, China, India will surpass Japan on every level in due time.

[omae mona]

In my opinion Japan is shooting itself in the foot when it comes to immigration. They need more to keep their pathetic nezumiko nenkin and bloated bureaucracy running.

Fair enough. But you have to admit there is a difference between changing immigration policy versus saying "there is no policy; whoever wants to be in Japan may stay here indefinitely". If Japan thinks it's to their benefit to have one more Filipino citizen living in the country, why should they give it to people who didn't follow the rules instead of the scores who did? There is no shortage of Filipinos, I assure you. They have plenty of legal ones to choose from. I know quite a few people in the Filipino community in Tokyo directly and indirectly, and countless members have returned to the Philippines after unsuccessful bids to renew visas. These are frequently people who were in the country over ten years, legally, and paying taxes. They chose not to break the law and overstay, and as a result had to return to much harsher economic conditions. I doubt these folks would be real thrilled to hear that people who broke the rules are the ones who get to stay.

My point is that immigration policy is a different issue than enforcement of that policy. Personally, I am a strong proponent of changing immigration policy. But I am an opponent of weakening enforcement; it is unfair to those who follow the rules, creates an underclass of residents who are in hiding, encourages more to try to break the law, and in the end ends up moving public opinion *against* the progressive policy changes that many people would like to see. The Saitama demonstration, however poorly conceived it was, is a sign of that.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think people are missing a couple of points here. First of all, Calderson is not an illegal immigrant. Her parent were and have been forced to leave. She was born in Japan and thus in a kind of legal gray area. The courts decided they couldn't let the parents stay under immigration law, but felt she should be allowed to finish school in Japan. Breaking up a family isn't exacly a warm, fuzzy, ultra-left decisions and I can understand the reasoning of people who believe it was a bad one whether they think the family should have all been allowed to stay or all been deported. I can also understand why the courts came to this kind of a compromise.

The second point is that these assholes from the Zaitokukai aren't only against the decision to let her stay which, whether you agree or not, isn't a totally outlandish opinion. Based on the kind of shit they were screaming in the video they obviously have a problem with gaijin in general and anyone who's left of extreme-right. And to go make noisy threatening protests in front of elementary and junior high schools and to harass gaijin in the street and call them criminals is way out of line. If you have a problem with what happened, go protest in front of the Warabi City Board of Ed, the court house, the MOJ, or the immigration office.

[james]

[quote="nottu"]You can see the reaction to it right here in FG world. Immediately, a bunch of FG politicos emotionally react confusing the illegal immigration issue with the spirit of the demonstration. They are two separate issues. The demonstrators should pick more appropriate targets - there are enough]

it's an emotional reaction to what is for many an emotional issue.. should they be deported according to the letter of the law and in the interest of not setting a bad precedent? probably given that they were and are here illegally.

would i personally have a problem with their staying? assuming they're decent people contributing to society in a positive way and not making problems and fitting in, then no, of course not but it's a bit of a slap in the face to those who came here legally and played by the rules.

that the demonstrators are racist douchebags who picked a very inappropriate venue for their demonstration is not in question and i don't think too many agree with their tactics or motives. they've certainly managed to ruffle a few feathers.

[baka tono]

Any bets takeapoo is their leader or at least in the march?

[omae mona]

I think people are missing a couple of points here. First of all, Calderson is not an illegal immigrant. Her parent were and have been forced to leave. She was born in Japan and thus in a kind of legal gray area.

Really? I thought it was clear cut that she was illegal. Other than the fact that the government can grant special visas in cases like this (especially when there is political pressure due to a huge PR campaign), what legal basis was there for her to be in the country? Japan has no laws relating to "jus soli" whatsoever, as far as I know.

The courts decided they couldn't let the parents stay under immigration law, but felt she should be allowed to finish school in Japan. Breaking up a family isn't exacly a warm, fuzzy, ultra-left decisions and I can understand the reasoning of people who believe it was a bad one whether they think the family should have all been allowed to stay or all been deported. I can also understand why the courts came to this kind of a compromise.

The second point is that these assholes from the Zaitokukai aren't only against the decision to let her stay which, whether you agree or not, isn't a totally outlandish opinion. Based on the kind of shit they were screaming in the video they obviously have a problem with gaijin in general and anyone who's left of extreme-right. And to go make noisy threatening protests in front of elementary and junior high schools and to harass gaijin in the street and call them criminals is way out of line. If you have a problem with what happened, go protest in front of the Warabi City Board of Ed, the court house, the MOJ, or the immigration office.

Yes, back to the original point of this thread. I agree with everything you wrote above. The demonstrators are assholes.

[Samurai_Jerk]

:shock: Really? I thought it was clear cut that she was illegal. Other than the fact that the government can grant special visas in cases like this (especially when there is political pressure due to a huge PR campaign), what legal basis was there for her to be in the country? Japan has no laws relating to "jus soli" whatsoever, as far as I know.

You can't call her an illegal immigrant though. She didn't immigrate from anywhere

[eddie]

people will always try to get into better situations. no matter how japan or any other country punishes these people, it's not going to deter one potential illegal immigrant. it's human nature. it's not like drug running or murder. there's no deterrant...(well, maybe the death penalty).
it's a gamble desperate people are willing to take.
personally, i would welcome anyone into my country who wants to be a law-abiding productive citizen. it's hard to tell who'll be one. so there are laws to weed out the bad ones. if someone sneaks in and proves they're good citizens, though, fuck, welcome aboard. that's how i see it. it's a murky issue, to be sure, but in the end, if someone shows themselves to be a good citizen, i see no reason to have punitive penalties. live and let live. move on...

[GuyJean]

.. if someone sneaks in and proves they're good citizens, though, fuck, welcome aboard. that's how i see it. it's a murky issue, to be sure, but in the end, if someone shows themselves to be a good citizen, i see no reason to have punitive penalties. live and let live. move on...

Shiiiit.. Who died and left you the choice to choose for those who're chosen to choose for others? You Statue of Liberty, Tea Bagging freak!

GJ

[omae mona]

personally, i would welcome anyone into my country who wants to be a law-abiding productive citizen. it's hard to tell who'll be one.

When somebody's first acts in the country are breaking the law by using forged passports, and then breaking the law again by overstaying their visa, do you still think it's hard to tell?

Eddie, I don't mean to be nasty, but your "welcome anyone" would be a silly and disastrous immigration policy for any rich country. If Japan let everybody in who was going to be law abiding, the population would probably increase by several hundred percent. Who wouldn't come from India (population 1.1 billion, average income $1000) to Japan (population 130 million, average income $30,000) to likely earn 30 years' salary in a year? Don't you think there might be a little problem with overcrowding in Japan?

Developed nations have to limit their immigration and have a sensible policy for selecting who, out of the the huge waiting list, will be allowed to come in. To me, it seems silly to choose those who start out by breaking the law over those who are patiently waiting and being law-abiding. I'm not sure I understand why you are ignoring the initial breaking of the law when judging people to be "law abiding" or not.

I think Japan's immigration policy is a huge problem and needs big changes. But I am glad they are not giving selfish lawbreakers priority over regular people.

[nottu]

[nottu]

[TennoChinko]

If the main beef of the Zaitokukai is the special treatment accorded to the "Special Permanent Residents" (eg Zainichi Koreans etc), then why didn't they simply hold a rally outside one of the pro-North Korean schools or Chosen Soren headquarters?

I don't see what Noriko Calderon's case has to do with it - and it's a case that I think most people are frankly sympathetic toward.

[Iraira]

[quote="Samurai_Jerk"]You can't call her an illegal immigrant though. She didn't immigrate from anywhere ]

She immigrated from a womb that was illegally stationed on Japanese soil...

[omae mona]

[quote="Iraira"]She immigrated from a womb that was illegally stationed on Japanese soil...]

Yeah, isn't that technically considered extraterritorial, like an embassy?

[xenomorph42]

I don't agree with you that in returing to the Philippines, Noriko will be going to nothing - she will have relatives, starting with her mother and father with whom it would be very beneficial live.


The emotion is the problem - why must the child pay for the parent's errors? - old as the hills and just as unfair - but life is not perfectly fair. So we have judges and they have latitude to act in trying, unfair circumstances. But even judges are mindful and careful of the movements they make knowing that law by exception is bad law.

But you cannot say that living in the Philippines would be beneficial for her, you don't know that, nor anyone else except her and her family. Again, to rip this girl from her environment and to punish her for a mistake that her parents made is appalling and for what? The girl is in the middle of school, you mean, immigration can't wait for a year or so until she finishes her studies, the parents are entirely a different story. The government should constructively use their time to apprehend real criminals starting with the corrupt politicians for one or how about the friendly police that love to bust your balls if you're a FG for no reason and let's not forget that bastard former President of Peru: "Fujimori"who fled to Japan and claimed political asylum, the man had nothing to do with Japan while he was living in and screwing up Peru now all of a sudden, he's a Japanese citizen and all is honkey dorey?? Ahh, almost forgot about the apartment agencies that often want to screw FG on outrageous fees for anything they can squeeze out of you!
Yea, life isn't fair, so let's clean up these corrupt institutions that really have a deep impact on people's lives and NOT make such a huge controversy over a girl that was born here who is "technically Japanese" and that is now suffering because these idiots have nothing better to do than disrupt a young girls life and for what?

[xenomorph42]

it's an emotional reaction to what is for many an emotional issue.. should they be deported according to the letter of the law and in the interest of not setting a bad precedent? probably given that they were and are here illegally.

would i personally have a problem with their staying? assuming they're decent people contributing to society in a positive way and not making problems and fitting in, then no, of course not but it's a bit of a slap in the face to those who came here legally and played by the rules.

that the demonstrators are racist douchebags who picked a very inappropriate venue for their demonstration is not in question and i don't think too many agree with their tactics or motives. they've certainly managed to ruffle a few feathers.

I agree.

[nottu]

[xenomorph42]

You just made my point - her parents are going to be in the Phillipines.


What are you doing that everyone can join in on?

First of all, that was NOT the point, her parents are there, but we don't know their circumstances on finding employment, re-adjusting to a life they haven't known for years, let alone her daughter. Again, if they want to deport the family/parents for breaking the law fine, but there needs to be room for a case by case study on each perpetrator that broke the law, each individual should have the right to be properly evaluated.

Second, this story has nothing directly to do with me. Please keep the focus on the topic at hand.

[omae mona]

First of all, that was NOT the point, her parents are there, but we don't know their circumstances on finding employment, re-adjusting to a life they haven't known for years, let alone her daughter.

Actually I think we do. On the news yesterday her father commented that he has no immediate prospects for employment and has no idea what he is going to do. But by my reckoning, if he saved any money during the 19 years he was in Japan, he might be rather well off by Philippine standards and be comfortable for a while without working.

Again, if they want to deport the family/parents for breaking the law fine, but there needs to be room for a case by case study on each perpetrator that broke the law, each individual should have the right to be properly evaluated.

I thought everybody gets an evaluation, hearing, and opportunity to lodge complaints during the deportation process. Is that not the case? This particular Calderon case involved press conferences and direct involvement from senior bureaucrats. Surely you're not suggesting that level of involvement for each of the hundreds of thousands of estimated visa overstayers, are you?

[xenomorph42]

First of all, that was NOT the point, her parents are there, but we don't know their circumstances on finding employment, re-adjusting to a life they haven't known for years, let alone her daughter.

Actually I think we do. On the news yesterday her father commented that he has no immediate prospects for employment and has no idea what he is going to do. But by my reckoning, if he saved any money during the 19 years he was in Japan, he might be rather well off by Philippine standards and be comfortable for a while without working.

Again, we don't know that for sure. I believe the parents will be fine, but I worry about the kid. The girl shouldn't have to suffer and go through this kind of turmoil. Is it too hard to wait until she's finished with her studies? I think not.

Again, if they want to deport the family/parents for breaking the law fine, but there needs to be room for a case by case study on each perpetrator that broke the law, each individual should have the right to be properly evaluated.

I thought everybody gets an evaluation, hearing, and opportunity to lodge complaints during the deportation process. Is that not the case? This particular Calderon case involved press conferences and direct involvement from senior bureaucrats. Surely you're not suggesting that level of involvement for each of the hundreds of thousands of estimated visa overstayers, are you?

Why yes, I am. And not everyone gets a fair evaluation in Japan, especially if you're a FG, it can go either way(as this case clearly shows) but you will have more or less the odds stacked against you rather than for you. This is just wrong, plain and simple.

[Greji]

Why yes, I am. And not everyone gets a fair evaluation in Japan, especially if you're a FG, it can go either way(as this case clearly shows) but you will have more or less the odds stacked against you rather than for you. This is just wrong, plain and simple.

Well, if you get your wish, plan on spending a full days as a minimum, for every visa related transaction, because if they are going to spend that much time on every single case, you are going to wait forever to be heard.

Even in this case, the law is specific. They were illegal in Japan as a whole. They should have been thrown out forthwith according to the law of Japan, or any other major country. The Philippines itself deports people in a flash.

These two got a break for their daughter and that was nice. It does not make it legal, nor should, or will it be a precident.

I appreciate your warm and fuzzy feelings. But when people openly and KNOWINGLY violate the law, they should not be given this so-called fair evaluation that you are seeking, whatever that may mean. Perhaps, if they can demonstrate some compelling mitigation, maybe they could receive one. But the burden of all proof and evidence should be with them. The GOJ should not be required to explain how and very little of why, somebody knowingly violated the law. All Japan needs is to show is that the law was violated. My feeling is they shouldn't receive any so-called fair hearings to stay. As much trouble and fuss that I have gone through to keep my records, visas and acts in accordance with the J-law, tells me that no one, absolutely no one who is here as an illegal, gets in front of me in the fucking line and if you believe that, you let them take your place in the line.

In a perfect world everything could and should be rosey, but it ain't perfect here, so tell them to quit trying to cut into the visa line in front of all the honest people waiting.

[omae mona]

The girl shouldn't have to suffer and go through this kind of turmoil.

You know, I actually *do* think maybe she should suffer. Kids all over the world suffer through much worse things (war, poverty, abuse) than getting sent to their country of citizenship with their parents. And those kids' parents didn't do anything illegal, unlike the Calderons. When you break the law, one consequence is that you fuck up your family. People don't get excused from jail time because it would leave their innocent family with less income, or leave their kids without a parent. I have no ill will against the girl, but I am really irritated she is getting special treatment not afforded to thousands of people in the same situation, merely because they waged a huge PR campaign. And I'd be even more irritated if they let the parents stay in the country. I might feel a little different if the Calderons even once showed some sign of remorse for their passport forgery or overstaying, but they never have apologized. To the contrary, they've shown nothing but a sense of entitlement.

Why yes, I am. And not everyone gets a fair evaluation in Japan, especially if you're a FG, it can go either way(as this case clearly shows) but you will have more or less the odds stacked against you rather than for you. This is just wrong, plain and simple.

I'm sorry, but when you commit passport forgery or overstay your visa, the odds SHOULD be stacked against you. There are very few legitimate reasons to break these rules, and I don't see any need for further leniency. I have sympathy for individuals who make clerical errors and accidentally overstay by a few days, if they try to rectify the problem. I have tons of sympathy for the Swiss woman who was forced to overstay because she was in police detention past her visa expiration. But I have zero sympathy for those who enter the country fraudulently to begin with and continue to break the law for 19 years. I have a little sympathy for their innocent family members who they fuck up as a result, but it's not the government's job to remedy that.

And suggesting that each and every one of the thousands of deportations every year should rise to the level of a TV and media frenzy is simply silly.

Please tell me what cases of unfair evaluation you've seen for people who committed immigration fraud or broke immigration rules. I'm very curious.

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

I already made some comments on this case in the earlier thread on Noriko Calderon (also linked in the original post here) so I wouldn't want to repeat those at length. In summary, I think the government ought to have deported them all or allowed them all to stay. Since they could have made some political and social capital by allowing all three to stay, on balance, that would have been a good option. Practically speaking, however, Noriko Calderon hasn't exactly been left in the lurch because she is going to stay with her aunt. As hardships go, that isn't one.

I disagree with the claim they should be deported simply because "the law is the law". The law in fact specifically allows the granting of special permission to reside. It can only be granted to people who are in the country illegally and has been granted on a number of occasions. Simply put, there is a valid legal process which illegal immigrants can follow to become legal. It's not an amnesty, it is entirely at the discretion of the Ministry of Justice based on the merits of the case at hand. You might argue that such a process shouldn't exist - although it does in most developed countries - but, since it does exist, it makes no sense to argue that all illegals must be deported because "the law is the law". I also don't see any evidence that the Calderons acted as if they were entitled to stay. Along with their lawyers, all they did was try to present their case in the most convincing way which is pretty much what you are obliged to do if you want to have any hope of winning.

The question, therefore, is whether the Calderons had a good enough case. I recommend people take a look at the Ministry of Justice page which looks at other applications for special permission. I linked to it in the other thread but here it is again. There's one case detailed of a man from South East Asia who entered Japan illegally by ship in 1972, stayed with his uncle and found stable employment. He married a fellow countryman in April 1997 and their daughter was born three months later. His wife had arrived in Japan on a short-term visa in 1990 and overstayed it illegally. In 2001, they gave themselves up to immigration, appealed for special permission to stay. It was granted.

Who knows what influenced the decision in the Calderon case? Did the Ministry frown on the fact that the Calderons used fake passports to enter Japan rather than smuggling themselves in or overstaying? Did it work against them that the case was so heavily publicized that the Ministry felt the need to take a stand? Perhaps these factors did play a part. However, whether you agree with the Ministry's final decision or not, it is clear that the Calderons were not asking for something which has never been granted before.

Before we get too far away from the original topic of this thread, it's important to reiterate that the people taking part in the march in Warabi have an invidious agenda which goes well beyond any concerns about Noriko Calderon.

[amdg]

If the main beef of the Zaitokukai is the special treatment accorded to the "Special Permanent Residents" (eg Zainichi Koreans etc), then why didn't they simply hold a rally outside one of the pro-North Korean schools or Chosen Soren headquarters?
.

SJ answered that pretty early on in the thread. They're pussies.

[nottu]

[xenomorph42]

[quote="nottu"]Like I said earlier –]

Again, keep the topic where it belongs, to belabor the point what activity I have in mind is at the moment irrelevant. That can be discussed at a later time.

[nottu]

[xenomorph42]

You know, I actually *do* think maybe she should suffer. Kids all over the world suffer through much worse things (war, poverty, abuse) than getting sent to their country of citizenship with their parents. And those kids' parents didn't do anything illegal, unlike the Calderons. When you break the law, one consequence is that you fuck up your family. People don't get excused from jail time because it would leave their innocent family with less income, or leave their kids without a parent. I have no ill will against the girl, but I am really irritated she is getting special treatment not afforded to thousands of people in the same situation, merely because they waged a huge PR campaign. And I'd be even more irritated if they let the parents stay in the country. I might feel a little different if the Calderons even once showed some sign of remorse for their passport forgery or overstaying, but they never have apologized. To the contrary, they've shown nothing but a sense of entitlement.


I'm sorry, but when you commit passport forgery or overstay your visa, the odds SHOULD be stacked against you. There are very few legitimate reasons to break these rules, and I don't see any need for further leniency. I have sympathy for individuals who make clerical errors and accidentally overstay by a few days, if they try to rectify the problem. I have tons of sympathy for the Swiss woman who was forced to overstay because she was in police detention past her visa expiration. But I have zero sympathy for those who enter the country fraudulently to begin with and continue to break the law for 19 years. I have a little sympathy for their innocent family members who they fuck up as a result, but it's not the government's job to remedy that.

And suggesting that each and every one of the thousands of deportations every year should rise to the level of a TV and media frenzy is simply silly.

Please tell me what cases of unfair evaluation you've seen for people who committed immigration fraud or broke immigration rules. I'm very curious.

We can discuss that another time, now I want to focus on the clearly injustice ruling by the courts to throw this girl out of her country, the country that she was born in.