Why so little looting in Japan?

[MrUltimateGaijin]

in the tsunami hit towns there wasnt much left to loot. There were quite a few less people and those people tended to be old folks who probably dont tend to "lets loot" much.

[Greji]

in the tsunami hit towns there wasnt much left to loot. There were quite a few less people and those people tended to be old folks who probably dont tend to "lets loot" much.

Makes sense. It is a bit difficult to imagine an 80 Y-O obaachan leaping out a broken store window and sprinting down the street with a pair of Michael Jordan's in one hand and a flat panel in the other.....

[damn name]

in the tsunami hit towns there wasnt much left to loot. There were quite a few less people and those people tended to be old folks who probably dont tend to "lets loot" much.

Yes, I'm sure that unavoidable circumstances prevented them from their natural desire to loot in the evacuation areas while the entire transportation infrastructure and distribution system for food was disrupted...

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Hammer had a post a while back about his local glazier who could barely keep up with demand to fit new windows to stop looters...

But...I gotta admit, I think public decorum in Japan in the wake of disaster is pretty hard to beat, even if it's not as perfect as noob reporters like to make it out to be.

[GomiGirl]

Am going to digress a moment and ask if the word "looting" makes the act seem less egregious than the word "theft".

A person who wouldn't want to be labelled a "thief" is fine to be known as a "looter" if the situation presented itself.

Now I am not talking about the person who is searching for food but the one who is jumping through plate glass window (previously smashed by somebody else) to walk off with a flat screen telly. Sure, the person who smashed the plate glass window leaving property unsecure is more culpable than the opportunist who comes along afterwards, reaches in and helps themselves. However, it is still theft.

Or am I being naive?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Am going to digress a moment and ask if the word "looting" makes the act seem less egregious than the word "theft".

A person who wouldn't want to be labelled a "thief" is fine to be known as a "looter" if the situation presented itself.

Now I am not talking about the person who is searching for food but the one who is jumping through plate glass window (previously smashed by somebody else) to walk off with a flat screen telly. Sure, the person who smashed the plate glass window leaving property unsecure is more culpable than the opportunist who comes along afterwards, reaches in and helps themselves. However, it is still theft.

Or am I being naive?

I don't think the word "looting" has any less of a negative connotation than "theft".

[Samurai_Jerk]

[quote="leitmotiv"]


From here, of course.

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The shot from the UK doesn't really fit in with the others. Kind of makes it less funny.

[Yokohammer]

Am going to digress a moment and ask if the word "looting" makes the act seem less egregious than the word "theft".

Not in my opinion. Theft is theft.

A person who wouldn't want to be labelled a "thief" is fine to be known as a "looter" if the situation presented itself.

Not so sure about that. Isn't a person who finds a wallet on the street, pockets whatever cash it might contain, and then dumps the wallet in a trash can somewhere normally considered a thief as well?

Now I am not talking about the person who is searching for food but the one who is jumping through plate glass window (previously smashed by somebody else) to walk off with a flat screen telly. Sure, the person who smashed the plate glass window leaving property unsecure is more culpable than the opportunist who comes along afterwards, reaches in and helps themselves. However, it is still theft.

I'm guessing this can get complicated (the legal eagles can probably straighten us out).

If a person simply breaks a store window without taking anything he or she would be guilty of criminal property damage (and in this case damage that compromises the security of the store).

If that person breaks the window and steals something then he/she would probably face a double charge of property damage + theft.

If the window was already broken and a person waltzes in and steals something that person might only be guilty of theft, but he/she might also be charged as an accessory to the property damage offense if, for example, he/she was hanging around nearby while the window was being broken.

Gee I'm glad I didn't decide to become a lawyer (and no doubt so are the suckers who might have ended up as my clients) ...

So anyway, this looting thing. Is it only "looting" if it's done by a wild crowd in a rowdily defiant and blatant manner? If so (and I doubt it), then sure, there hasn't been much looting in Japan's disaster areas. If, however, the term "looting" applies to someone quietly walking into someone's property that has been damaged by a disaster and helping themselves to stuff, then there has been plenty of looting. I personally think the latter is looting too, it's just not violent or obvious. Very Japanese.

[matsuki]

Theft is theft.

THIS

If, however, the term "looting" applies to someone quietly walking into someone's property that has been damaged by a disaster and helping themselves to stuff, then there has been plenty of looting. I personally think the latter is looting too, it's just not violent or obvious. Very Japanese.

My only argument here is if the place is in such a state that food/supplies cannot be legally obtained...I wouldn't call it looting or theft, it would be scavenging. From what I've seen/read, things were bad after the tsunami but not bad enough to loot all the local places for food/supplies. There was plenty of looting/breaking and entering, etc. in the disaster areas by individuals, who then horded what they had stolen...be it food, supplies or MONEY.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Not in my opinion. Theft is theft.

I agree but if I were in a situation where a natural disaster had made it impossible to get food, water, medicine and other necessities legally, I wouldn't hesitate to steal. Same goes for squating in an abandoned home or business for shelter.

[Coligny]

Aint the difference between looting and stealing the fact that looting is much less selective in the goods being considered and much more violent toward property ?

Stealing
Looting
Holding up(ing ?)
burglary

All 4 have specificities (and looting goes hand to hand with rioting)

Originally Posted by Yokohammer
If, however, the term "looting" applies to someone quietly walking into someone's property that has been damaged by a disaster and helping themselves to stuff, then there has been plenty of looting. I personally think the latter is looting too, it's just not violent or obvious. Very Japanese.

If the door is open, wouldn't it be stealing instead ? if just the door is forced that would be burglary, if item are destroyed for no reason that would be looting...

While on the other side of the spectrum we have as said, we have
scavenging (food, diapers, medicinal drugs)

But scavenging imply that availability of life sustaining goods is no longer provided through regular channels.

[Yokohammer]

I agree but if I were in a situation where a natural disaster had made it impossible to get food, water, medicine and other necessities legally, I wouldn't hesitate to steal. Same goes for squating in an abandoned home or business for shelter.

Sure. That's survival. I doubt there was much need for that though. Emergency food and supplies became available pretty quickly at evacuation centers. I'm talking about opportunistic theft (looting), which there was apparently quite a bit of, and it continued long after normal supply lines were restored.

Here's an example that confuses me a bit though: people were siphoning gas out of stranded cars to fill their own. That seems sort of OK on the surface, but suppose the owner of the stranded vehicle came back and wanted to retrieve the gas, which was his or her property, to use in another vehicle? Does it come down to an issue of who needs the gas the most, regardless of ownership? Is it even possible to quantify "need" in that situation?

[matsuki]

Sure. That's survival. I doubt there was much need for that though. Emergency food and supplies became available pretty quickly at evacuation centers. I'm talking about opportunistic theft (looting), which there was apparently quite a bit of, and it continued long after normal supply lines were restored.

Here's an example that confuses me a bit though: people were siphoning gas out of stranded cars to fill their own. That seems sort of OK on the surface, but suppose the owner of the stranded vehicle came back and wanted to retrieve the gas, which was his or her property, to use in another vehicle? Does it come down to an issue of who needs the gas the most, regardless of ownership? Is it even possible to quantify "need" in that situation?

Exactly my point. Shit was bad there but with everything that was sent in, there was no need for scavenging and whatnot. That was just plain looting/thievery.

[Coligny]

Exactly my point. Shit was bad there but with everything that was sent in, there was no need for scavenging and whatnot. That was just plain looting/thievery.

I think you are a bit optimistic here, remember the youtube video from the mayor of Minami Soma, seems they were not exactly thriving on donations when he was begging for help...

[maraboutslim]

Not so sure about that. Isn't a person who finds a wallet on the street, pockets whatever cash it might contain, and then dumps the wallet in a trash can somewhere normally considered a thief as well?

Seriously? The nice thing to do might be to attempt to reunite the wallet owner with the property they have "lost", but do you really think it is theft to find an item in a public space and keep it? Do personal property rights extend to things we have lost?

I once left a watch at the beach. When I went back to where it had been and found it was gone, I didn't think my watch had been "stolen". I thought, "someone found it. damn." Same goes for umbrellas or the cheese cake I left on the tokyo subway. Once it's out of my control, it's finders keepers.

[Dragonette]

[Mulboyne]

Do you really think it is theft to find an item in a public space and keep it? Do personal property rights extend to things we have lost?

In Japan, it's a criminal offence not to hand in lost property you might find. As a carrot, there's a designated reward schedule if the item is claimed and it becomes yours if it goes unclaimed. More in this post. You might think arresting people who fail to turn in lost property is virtually impossible but the system is one reason why lost items do frequently turn up.

One example of a recent arrest arose when a bank customer left a cash withdrawal at a bank ATM. Another customer found it and walked off with it. CCTV revealed their identity and police made an arrest.

[Jack]

In Japan, it's a criminal offence not to hand in lost property you might find. As a carrot, there's a designated reward schedule if the item is claimed and it becomes yours if it goes unclaimed. More in this post. You might think arresting people who fail to turn in lost property is virtually impossible but the system is one reason why lost items do frequently turn up.

One example of a recent arrest arose when a bank customer left a cash withdrawal at a bank ATM. Another customer found it and walked off with it. CCTV revealed their identity and police made an arrest.

I didn't know that.
This happened to me several years ago at Narita airport from one of the telephone card vending machines. As I was walking by there was 7,000 yen dangling from the money return slot. I took it and kept it. I thought it was "karma".

[Yokohammer]

Even if the owner is not identifiable from the item itself (the reason I used a wallet in my previous example is that wallets usually do contain personal identification, which the owner would also want back), people will usually check with the police if they've lost an item of value, and many items are returned to their rightful owner that way. Maybe it doesn't work that way in other countries, but that's the way it works in Japan ... sometimes.

This wasn't via the police, but many years ago my wallet, containing over JPY 100,000, slipped out of my pocket while I was riding the Shinkansen and I didn't notice until I was almost home. I immediately returned to Tokyo station and went to the railway office. My wallet had been turned in, and not one yen was missing.

[GomiGirl]

This wasn't via the police, but many years ago my wallet, containing over JPY 100,000, slipped out of my pocket while I was riding the Shinkansen and I didn't notice until I was almost home. I immediately returned to Tokyo station and went to the railway office. My wallet had been turned in, and not one yen was missing.

Stories like this are, happily, not uncommon here. Did the person who turned it in leave their name?

I found a camcorder at Mt Mitake and turned it in. The owner sent me beer tickets as a thank you as well as a lovely handwritten, decorated note from him and his son - in English!! It was a good karma day as it was the same day that my boyfriend (now husband) took me up Mt Mitake to propose in style with a gourmet picnic!!

[maraboutslim]

Just to be clear, I've been on both the returning and receiving end of such stories and I think it is the thing to do. I just thought it is somewhat different than "theft" and don't really expect anyone who finds my lost stuff to be obligated to return it the way I expect people to not take stuff out of my pockets or out of my house/car.

[Coligny]

Just to be clear, I've been on both the returning and receiving end of such stories and I think it is the thing to do. I just thought it is somewhat different than "theft" and don't really expect anyone who finds my lost stuff to be obligated to return it the way I expect people to not take stuff out of my pockets or out of my house/car.

Few weeks ago didn't we see trial aboot a found bank book returned to its owner and the finder considered he had right to some money from the bank account and then sued. And he was awarded quite a share of the money. Pretty sure I read it from here. Look like an open door between legal extorsion and scam.

[matsuki]

In Japan, it's a criminal offence not to hand in lost property you might find. As a carrot, there's a designated reward schedule if the item is claimed and it becomes yours if it goes unclaimed. More in this post. You might think arresting people who fail to turn in lost property is virtually impossible but the system is one reason why lost items do frequently turn up.

One example of a recent arrest arose when a bank customer left a cash withdrawal at a bank ATM. Another customer found it and walked off with it. CCTV revealed their identity and police made an arrest.

Wow, that's pretty messed up if it was obvious who's cash it was....but if I walked up to an ATM with noone around and there's unclaimed cash in there, fuck if I'm going to leave it.

[damn name]

Well, the bank could find the identity of the person who left it.

You can't be trusted in business - you're a thief. Your mother must be proud.

Oh, and it's "no one," not "noone."

[Yokohammer]

Cash left on an ATM machine ... I'm going to hand it in to the bank.

Back to looting. There was a bank up here, in Ishinomaki or somewhere that was hit pretty hard by the tsunami, that was partly destroyed and the vault door was left ajar for some reason (the bank staff apparently believed that the vault was secure). Someone simply walked in, picked up about 40 million yen, and walked out. Now if that isn't looting, I don't know what the fuck is.

[damn name]

Maybe it's just semantics. Thievery is thievery, but I would consider looting as something done by a mob during a riot or war.

[Coligny]

Cash left on an ATM machine ... I'm going to hand it in to the bank.

frack that... I'm not even going to touch it with a 10 ft pole...

If it's not to help someone I know or deal with a situation i have responsabilities for, standard operating procedure here is 'not to get involved'. And I'm ready to bet no cop would evar blame me for this.

Thursday night at 3am I was driving back home and at a red (green) light there was a guy in the middle of the road waving me to stop, quiet hood, 10minutes to from the central train station. I slowed down there was no sign of accident or anything, when he went to the car passanger side instead of driver side btw, I gunned it (wuz still green light)(well, for a Nissan Note that would be what you call gunning, most other car would call this 'laborious uphill start, with a trailer on tow'). I kept the video from the drive recorder just in case.

[matsuki]

Well, the bank could find the identity of the person who left it.

Right, which is why I was saying you wouldn't just leave it there. What I was saying is it would be fucked up if it's obvious who left it there and the guy just keeps it.

You can't be trusted in business - you're a thief. Your mother must be proud.

[font="Comic Sans MS"]Noone[/font] said anything about pocketing the cash, I said I wouldn't leave it. I didn't think I needed to explain the motive for not leaving it there in a thread where the previous posts explain how some guy just got caught pocketing the cash or how there is a designated reward schedule but it appears you can't connect the dots. "Your mother must be proud."

frack that... I'm not even going to touch it with a 10 ft pole...

If it's not to help someone I know or deal with a situation i have responsabilities for, standard operating procedure here is 'not to get involved'. And I'm ready to bet no cop would evar blame me for this.

Unfortunately, Coligny may be right here...as FG, sometimes helping out becomes loads of wasted time and trouble and you may regret getting involved. How many horrow stories have we read about turning in a found cell phone to a Koban.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Well, whoever the prick was that found my wallet containing more than 1 million yen in gift money from wedding no. 3 after it fell out of my pocket while I was drunkenly taking a crap on a Japanese-style shitter on the Shinkansen near Yokohama 18 years ago and gone when I realized I'd dropped it less than two minutes later, that money would really, really come in handy now if you wouldn't mind handing it in....

[Ganma]

Unfortunately, Coligny may be right here...as FG, sometimes helping out becomes loads of wasted time and trouble and you may regret getting involved. How many horrow stories have we read about turning in a found cell phone to a Koban.

When you're a stranger in a strange land the best policy is always 'hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil'.