Which J-E/E-J Dictionary?

[Big Booger]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3080092530&category=14952

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3079387718&category=14952

need opinions fast

[Taro Toporific]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3080092530&category=14952

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3079387718&category=14952

need opinions fast

The Canon Word Tank thingie seems to be preferred 5-to-1 by FG language students here in Tokyo. (I use a Seiko.) But hey, I am NOT the expert on this, GomiGirl is.

[Taro Toporific]

I'm not really current on these things, but the handwriting feature on the Casio looks like a great feature to have, if it actually works as advertised (with gaijin handwriting).

As Ultra is alluding to, handwriting feature is great for Japanese people. However, if an FG needs to look up J-word with gaijin handwriting, they sure as hell ain't gonna know the stroke order. The Japanese look-up is baced on stroke order of the input, which is a feature that is MUCH better at handwriting recognition than in Western languages. FGs are hopeless at the proper stroke order since they weren't tortured in Japanese grade school for 10 years to learn it.

[Big Booger]

The only problem I have with the writing recognition based dictionary is the amount of words in the dictionary.

Casio:
Dictionaries included:

* Japanese Dictionary: 50,000 entries
* English to Japanese Dictionary: 47,500 entries
* Japanese to English Dictionary: 31,000 entries
* Kanji Dictionary: 108,000 entries

Canon:
Main dictionaries:

* Kanji-gen Kanji dictionary with 410,000 entries.
* Japanese / English dictionary with 80,000 entries.
* English / Japanese dictionary with 95,000 entries.
* Japanese / Japanese dictionary with an amazing 230,000 entries.
* English thesaurus with 21,000 entries.
* New Katakana dictionary with 16,000 entries.
* Illustration dictionary with 2,600 entries.

But I like the writing recognition.... that is why I am split... I wished they made is so that you could upgrade the dictionaries as newer one's are released.

[vvx]

Would you believe this, I OWN BOTH THOSE! Seriously, except my wordtank is a 4500. Definetly get the wordtank. The lack of a jump search on the casio will drive you insane (hence the reason I bought the wordtank.) It has a jump search, -- however the jump search only jumps english words to the english to japanese dictionary. See a word in kanji you don't know? The procedure to look that up on the casio is to scribble that word down on a post it note or whatever you have handy, then go to the japanese dictionary (not the j->e, because that requires hiragana which you don't know), carefully write the kanji in the right stroke pattern, at which point you'll get the japanese definition of that kanji including the hiragana. Now, if you wanted English, you go to the j->e dictionary, and enter that hiragana (hope you still have that scratch paper handy.)

On the wordtank, if you see a word in kanji you don't know, you use the jump function to highlight it, jump to the j->e dictionary, and you've got hiragana and english translation. Mucho better!

I do use the casio when I have to translate a lot of kanji words however, because it's so easy if you do get the stroke orders right (even if you get it wrong, it usually is easier to get it right on the third or fourth try than look up each kanji individually by stroke count etc..). But, if you only want one or the other, there's no question about it, the wordtank! (Oh yeah, english menus.. that's kinda nice!)

[GomiGirl]

Well, I happen to know a dictionary that is mobile, available 24 hours a day 7 days a week and is on your mobile phone.

Stats on the dictionary alone:

UniDict OnAir has over 150,000 words in a bi-directional Japanese/English dictionary, romaji to kana conversion, romanisation of readings, verb conjugation and fuzzy lookup for beginners. The kanji dictionary includes 15,600 characters ( JIS Level 1,2 & hojo kanji), 250 kanji parts and radicals in the Parts constructor, SKIP builder and limiters for common kanji (joyo kanji). UniDict OnAir's dictionaries are supported and updated by the world renowed CJK Dictionary Institute. An automatic phrase translation service is also supplied by WorldLingo™.

Plus you don't have to sell the farm to purchase it and it is being constantly updated and improved.

http://tangotown.jp

It is much more than a dictionary as it has daily lessons and huge subject delineated glossaries. Plus all the kanji for the JPLT is listed. You can have the readings diplayed either in kana or romaji and this is customisable.

The animated kanji stroke orders will help you learn how to write correctly. You can search either in meaning, reading, radicals, strokes, SKIP or the proprietary "parts chart" especially designed for non-native speakers.

I use it everyday and find it extremely useful.

[Big Booger]

In addition to getting the Canon I think I'll also get that tango town service. One question, does the sound icon actually produce the sound of the words that you look up gomi? And can you look up Kanji by the number of strokes in case you don't recognize the furigana of the kanji?

How often is that online dictionary updated? Can you access it only on your keitai, or if you are a member can you access it from an online browser as well?

[GomiGirl]

One question, does the sound icon actually produce the sound of the words that you look up gomi? And can you look up Kanji by the number of strokes in case you don't recognize the furigana of the kanji?

That's two questions..

1. We only have sound when we have the pre-recorded sound files. We have a few now but we are building it up. I hate the generated speech on a keitai and only use real voices. But the sound icon is for how it is read. [Note each carrier uses a different character set for emoji and it will look different from carrier to carrier. We use the standard emoji whereever possible as making icons and graphics is a real pain in the rear - as CSTaylor can agree. Also, the emoji in the handset are font data and chew up way fewer data packets than graphics.. ie saving you money on your packet fees.]

2. Yes you can look up kanji by stroke number.. you can use a single "x" number or a range "x-y" just in case you aren't sure how many strokes.. if you know what the kanji means in English you can search by that too.

If you are really geeky like me, you can even search by code number (ie the ShiftJIS (hex), JIS (hex), Unicode (hex), Kuten or SKIP codes)

How often is that online dictionary updated? Can you access it only on your keitai, or if you are a member can you access it from an online browser as well?

Again that is three questions...

1. We are tweaking stuff everyday but we always act when people send us suggestions - eg recognising the difference between US and UK English. Plus we have have agreements with CJKI and Jim Breen so that we all share updates with each other.

2. Yes - only on a keitai.

3. No never on a PC.. this is for many reasons - mainly security and contractual arrangements with the carriers.

[kamome]

I'm not really current on these things, but the handwriting feature on the Casio looks like a great feature to have, if it actually works as advertised (with gaijin handwriting).

I have an ancient Wordtank gathering dust somewhere, but I got a lot of use out of it in its time. I think kamome was partial to the Sharp Zaurus line, but that's really more of a PDA.

Yeah, I was into Zaurus for the handwriting recognition feature (i.e., I used it for kanji look-ups). I also had a Canon Wordtank for quick J --> E lookups during conversations. The Zaurus was better for translating written Japanese on menus, street signs, etc.

By the way, I had no trouble remembering stroke order for the kanji. There are a few set rules for stroke order, and anyone who has studied Japanese formally for a couple of years should be able to remember them well enough to use a Zaurus or Casio.

Now I rarely use either dictionary. You reach a point in your Japanese language study where it becomes a waste of time to lug a dictionary around. If you don't understand a word in conversation, you ask the other person to explain the meaning (in Japanese). If you can't think of the right Japanese word, you come up with the synonyms you know or describe the concept in sentences. Japanese people will get the meaning from context.

For written Japanese, I started translating technical stuff on the job that went beyond the capacity of my Zaurus. Now I only use the Hadamitzky and Spahn Kanji Dictionary (a hefty print volume) in conjunction with a free online dictionary for on-the-job translating purposes.

[GomiGirl]

If you don't understand a word in conversation, you ask the other person to explain the meaning (in Japanese). If you can't think of the right Japanese word, you come up with the synonyms you know or describe the concept in sentences. Japanese people will get the meaning from context.

Yep I know what you mean - but my problem now is that I stick to the same vocab that I always knew and haven't gone past that. I still look up things especially at work when there is a kanji I don't know. Conversation is a different thing altogether.

[mercutio]

I wouldnt get either one of those. Just buy a japaneseOS PDA that runs pocketPC or winCE, then get on the net and install JWPce. It is a nice little freeware japanese wordprocessor that also contains Jim Breen's very extensive Japanese dictionary. It is as good as or better than any of the comercial dictionaries ive seen. The only downside is that it doesnt have example sentences.... but since you have a wordprocessor you can just copy in your own lists of sentences or DL them off the net


I have a casio e-700... It is great at recognizing handwritten kanji and you can pick one up on yahoo auctions for less than $100 US and you then youll have a highly flexible, scalable solution that is just as good if not better than both of the ones listed plus the ability to add other software...like kanji flashcard software

[Taro Toporific]

[GomiGirl]

I've got to rewrite the mova manual covering this trippy function for Japanese input called "Predictive Converstion." When you type part of a kanji reading the mova phone predicts the entire phrase you want to enter from a list the the mova has stored in it.

When is the english predictive text coming?

[Taro Toporific]

I've got to rewrite the mova manual covering this trippy function for Japanese input called "Predictive Converstion." When you type part of a kanji reading the mova phone predicts the entire phrase you want to enter from a list the the mova has stored in it.

When is the english predictive text coming?

This is wild: the damn proto-mova has just guessed that when I type in "su-ta" it should type in Japanese "Meet me at Starbucks."

There's a British software company that offers very good "predictive thumb-typing" for cell phones but this "Predictive Converstion" is just too kool. I swear after a few more weeks of watching me, this damn mova will could answer my Japanese email by itself if I let it.

[GomiGirl]

There's a British software company that offers very good "predictive thumb-typing" for cell phones but this "Predictive Converstion" is just too kool. I swear after a few more weeks of watching me, this damn mova will could answer my Japanese email by itself if I let it.

Ah yes but does it convert an English phrase into a Japanese email automatically? buurrr nope it doesn't - but mine does!!

I win!!

[Big Booger]

One question, does the sound icon actually produce the sound of the words that you look up gomi? And can you look up Kanji by the number of strokes in case you don't recognize the furigana of the kanji?

That's two questions..

1. We only have sound when we have the pre-recorded sound files. We have a few now but we are building it up. I hate the generated speech on a keitai and only use real voices. But the sound icon is for how it is read. [Note each carrier uses a different character set for emoji and it will look different from carrier to carrier. We use the standard emoji whereever possible as making icons and graphics is a real pain in the rear - as CSTaylor can agree. Also, the emoji in the handset are font data and chew up way fewer data packets than graphics.. ie saving you money on your packet fees.]

2. Yes you can look up kanji by stroke number.. you can use a single "x" number or a range "x-y" just in case you aren't sure how many strokes.. if you know what the kanji means in English you can search by that too.

If you are really geeky like me, you can even search by code number (ie the ShiftJIS (hex), JIS (hex), Unicode (hex), Kuten or SKIP codes)

How often is that online dictionary updated? Can you access it only on your keitai, or if you are a member can you access it from an online browser as well?

Again that is three questions...

1. We are tweaking stuff everyday but we always act when people send us suggestions - eg recognising the difference between US and UK English. Plus we have have agreements with CJKI and Jim Breen so that we all share updates with each other.

2. Yes - only on a keitai.

3. No never on a PC.. this is for many reasons - mainly security and contractual arrangements with the carriers.

Well one lead to another and another and well another Thanks for answering.

I think I might try it out. 300 yen a month is peanuts. Thanks.

[GomiGirl]

Well one lead to another and another and well another Thanks for answering.

I think I might try it out. 300 yen a month is peanuts. Thanks.

Just be careful of the packet fees. Check your plan that you are on. Also, use bookmarks whenever possible and also screen memos. The packet fees creep up on you and then bite you in the bum. All packet fees are charged and collected and kept by the carrier.

[American Oyaji]

Hey GG, is there something like tango town out there but for PC browser access?

[GomiGirl]

Hey GG, is there something like tango town out there but for PC browser access?

Nope - not from me anyway. I leave that sort of things to the dotcoms... I only work with mobile.

[Andocrates]

Gomi are those adverts I see in The Hirigana Times yours? (Tango Town)

[Ol Dirty Gaijin]

I'm with mercutio here. For a cheap option a PDA runing CE, with the inbuilt Japanese dictionary and then Jim Breen's JDIC and the japanese Gene added on most things are covered for next to nothing.

It was a bit of pain to get it running but now it's done (ignore the instructions on the website ), no probs. Any other time I've got the PC infront of me and pop things into Jdic once again or the Japanese ALC site. Horses for courses

[GomiGirl]

The new Kenkyusha Online Dictionary is available for free access
during the month of March. The link is:
http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp

This is one of the best dictionaries ever... if your dictionary is not as good as this then it is a waste of money.

BTW mine is this good - just different.

[Taro Toporific]

h
need opinions fast

Not a fast opinion but ...

Subject: Electronic Dictionaries: A Buyer's Guide
bottom line: FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS: The CASIO RM-2000.
From: American Embassy Tokyo, Thu, 27 May 2004 08:01pm

Electronic Dictionaries: A Buyer's Guide

(This article was contributed by the head of the U.S. Department of State's Japanese language field school)

Despite the wide range of web-based and PC-based dictionaries available, most of you will find yourselves at one time or another desperately in need of a dictionary to read or say something of great interest and with no PC in sight. That's when an electronic dictionary can be a real lifesaver. For one thing, they are portable. A single PDA-sized Sharp e-dictionary contains a Japanese-Japanese dictionary, an English-English dictionary, a Japanese-English dictionary, an English-Japanese dictionary, an English Thesaurus, a Kanji dictionary, and an assortment of mini-dictionaries covering famous people, geography, seasonal terms (so you make the correct reference to the season in your haiku), and a dictionary of famous works (so you won't be thrown for a loop by references to classical Chinese literary works or go cross-eyed trying to untangle the katakana version of a Russian, Arabic or Italian book, opera or play.) This is of course in addition to handy manuals for composi!
ng letters, notes and remarks for any occasion.

There is a bewildering array of choices out there for you with prices ranging from zero to 40,000 yen. The free option is a download for your PDA available at no cost from http://www.geocities.com/andrew_brault/dokusha/. If you are chained to your PDA anyway, this may be the most efficient solution for you. One positive advantage is that you have the option of simply writing in an unknown kanji with the stylus rather than trying to identify a radical and count the brush strokes.

If you don't have a PDA, the first thing to remember is that most electronic dictionaries are intended for native Japanese speakers whose interests and needs are different from ours. These interests tend to diverge most on the kanji dictionary function. We want a dictionary that readily gives an English definition for a Kanji or kanji compound word. Japanese users are more interested in making sure they have the right kanji for a word they already know. If they want a definition, they want it in Japanese. Accordingly, most electronic dictionaries tend to provide Japanese definitions for kanji first. Moreover, the J-E dictionary is often smaller than the combined kanji and J-J dictionaries (e.g. 80,000 vice 230,000) so there are often cases where there is no corresponding English definition. Another glitch is that some dictionaries (e.g., Sharp and Sony) do not provide English language screen prompts or button labels, which can be annoying for beginners.

The second thing to remember is don't buy anything you haven't tried out yourself. No matter how many features it has listed on the box, the most important feature is whether you can use it without going cross-eyed. When test driving a dictionary focus first on the kanji function. Electronic dictionaries at the upper end of the spectrum enable you to look up a kanji by a variety of means: on-yomi, kun-yomi, any radical within the kanji (not just the "right" one under which it is listed in the paper dictionaries) and number brush strokes. Some dictionaries, like the Casio Ex-Word XD-470, let you draw the kanji with a stylus. Once you select a kanji, another function lists all the compound words containing the kanji. Canon Word Tanks lists all compounds in which the kanji appears first. Sharp e-dictionaries list all kanji compounds containing the kanji, whether as the first, second, third or fourth element in the compound, which is nice if you're Japanese or a linguist !
but in general it just gives you twice as many screens to scroll through to get to the one you want.

The crunch comes with how easy it is to find the English meaning. My personal favorite, the old Canon Word Tank IDX-9600, is the most user-friendly, allowing you to go straight from the kanji compound to the English meaning. It is the last advanced electronic dictionary that seems designed for foreigners. Newer Canons, Sharps and Seikos give you the Japanese meaning first and you have to use a "jump" function to get to the English meaning. Beware! Some "jump" functions are better than others, allowing you to jump between all of the dictionaries. Most Sonys and some Casios don't let you jump from the kanji compound to the English definition. You have to re-enter the kanji compound phonetically in the Japanese-English dictionary. So, before making a purchase, make sure that that jump function works for you.

The newest and latest model is not necessarily the best for you. Most users believe that the greater number of entries (1.1 million vice 650,000), the fuller definitions and examples of usages in the newer models outweigh the convenience of the older models like the Canon Word Tank IDX-9600. Rather than being mesmerized by the overall number of entries, you should focus on the number of entries in the Japanese-English dictionary. That's the chief bottleneck for beginner-mid level users. No matter how many kanji-compounds your new electronic dictionary has, if the J-E portion is too small, you run into the frustration of having no English definition for the fancy "jump" function to jump to! Unless you're advanced enough to be satisfied with a Japanese definition, it's best to opt for the model with the biggest J-E portion. The smaller the gap between the J-E entries and the other entries, the lower the user frustration level. A robust jump function also helps to reduce!
the gap. While the original J-word may not be in the English dictionary, words used in the Japanese definition may- so check this out too while test-driving.

Another crunch is whether or not an English manual is available. Canon is generally better at providing English manuals. Akhihabara is better at stocking English manuals, although you can also download them from the web (if available) if you purchase you electronic dictionary elsewhere. For a more detailed description and comparison of specific models (including a step-by-step explanation of how to use them) you may want to check out these two sites:

http://www.bornplaydie.com/japan/dictionary/dictionary.htm#sharppw
http://www.wordtankcentral.com/products.php

Dictionaries at the upper end of the scale weigh about the same as a PDA but are generally wider. This is fine for the office or for tossing in your briefcase. Like an inner-city cop, you may want a smaller back-up piece that you can slip into a shirt or coat pocket just in case you need it while out and about. There are a large number of dictionaries in the 2,000-5,000 yen range that fulfill this function. They generally have just three dictionaries: Japanese-English, English-Japanese and kanji and seem pitched to Japanese high school students. The kanji function on these cheaper ones is quite limited. In the Casio Ex-Word XD-400, the kanji function is only to help Japanese make sure they have the right kanji for a word or reading. You input a reading and it produces the kanji. It does not provide any definitions or list compounds in which the word appears. It does not let you look them up by radical or brush stroke. If you don't know the reading, you are just ou!
t of luck. It is, however, useful for helping out in oral communication.

At 3,000 yen there is the slightly more versatile Seiko IC Dictionary (SR350). It also has three dictionaries: an English-Japanese, Japanese-English and kanji dictionary. The Seiko permits you to look up individual kanji by radical and stroke count. It does not generate a list of compounds containing the kanji but it does provide a Japanese definition of the kanji's basic meaning. If you're just tooling around town or idly reading a newspaper or book on the train, this is generally good enough. You can usually guess the general meaning of a compound word from context if you know the first kanji. Not much larger than a meishi holder, the SR350 is very portable and can easily become a permanent part of your wardrobe.

FOR ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS: The CASIO RM-2000. This is the only dictionary made specifically for the English speaker just beginning to learn Japanese. It is based on the Kenkyusha Romanized E/J-J/E Dictionary. It is the easiest dictionary to use out of the box! You simply type in a word using roman letters and you get a detailed definition with good examples of usages and idioms. For Japanese words you get the kanji and/or hiragana readings as well. However, it does not contain a separate kanji dictionary, so if you do not know the reading of an unfamiliar kanji compound, you're left high and dry. It is billed as targeting the very beginning level Japanese learner or those focusing on spoken as opposed to written Japanese. If you have any interest in learning to read, you should go ahead and get a Word Tank for about the same price (15,000 yen). If you know that you have neither the time nor the inclination to master Japan's uniquely complex writing system, then the CAS!
IO RM-2000 would be much easier to use and provide value for dollar.



------------------------------------------------------

The American Embassy in Tokyo
American Citizen Services
1-10-5 Akasaka, Minato-ku, Tokyo 107-8420
Tel: 03-3224-5174
Fax: 03-3224-5856
http://www.tokyoacs.com

[omae mona]

As a former Dokusha (for Palm) user, and a loyal current Tango Town customer, I am most happy with my shiny new Canon Wordtank G-50 (review). Has the Kenkyusha Readers E-J and the kenkyusha new college J-E built in.

Dokusha's great and free. Tango Town has way more cool features, is always with me since I have my keitai, and is nearly free. This G-50 is not even close to free, but having a real keyboard, fast response, and HUGE dictionaries means I get a lot more use out of it. They even copied the kanji animation feature from Tango Town. It will only cost you about 8 years worth of Tango Town access.
note: G50 not for beginners.
note 2: so why do I have it?