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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ F*cked News

'Debito Arudou' loses his Soapland Suit

Odd news from Japan and all things Japanese around the world.
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38 posts • Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2

'Debito Arudou' loses his Soapland Suit

Postby Taro Toporific » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:42 pm


Foreigner barred from Hokkaido bathhouse loses appeal against city gov't
japantoday > national
Friday, September 17, 2004 at 07:17 JST
SAPPORO ---
The Sapporo High Court on Thursday rejected an appeal in a racial discrimination suit seeking compensation from a Hokkaido city government for failing to stop a policy of refusing foreigners at a bathhouse under its jurisdiction.
....seeking a total of 6 million yen in damages from the Otaru city government and the bathhouse operator was filed Feb 1, 2001, by David Aldwinckle, a 39-year-old U.S.-born local resident who is now a naturalized Japanese with the name of Debito Arudou....
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Postby GomiGirl » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:18 pm

He won the first one didn't he? This was just for damages.

So the govt said that he had a point but it was not worth 6million yen. Considering that he used "entrapment" to catch them out I am not surprised.
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Postby Steve Bildermann » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:40 pm

by David Aldwinckle, a 39-year-old U.S.-born local resident who is now a naturalized Japanese with the name of Debito Arudou....

Sort of like 'the artist formerly known as prince but who we still call prince' doesn't that quote sort of tell you that the case was lost before 'the Japanese guy formerly known as David Aldwinckle' even started.
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approach

Postby maraboutslim » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:56 pm

Though it is highly unlikely, there may come a time when the Japanese can see some like Debito, a naturalized Japanese, as "Japanese". They may get over his lack of Japanese blood, his lack of a Japanese appearance.

But there will never come a time when they will get over his lack of Japanese behavior and his refusal to behave in appropriate ways for the Japanese culture. Never. Ever.

His way of approaching life is just so in conflict with Japanese society that it sticks out more than his white skin and big nose.

[i am not saying he shouldn't attempt to rectify true injustices and try to make a better society for gaijin and his daughters. I'm just saying he needs to go about creating change in a method appropriate for Japanese society. And you know, if he did that, he may actually accomplish something. His current approach is doomed.]
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Re: approach

Postby Mulboyne » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:31 pm

maraboutslim wrote:I'm just saying he needs to go about creating change in a method appropriate for Japanese society. And you know, if he did that, he may actually accomplish something. His current approach is doomed.


Debito may well be doomed to failure but alarm bells always go off when I see a phrase like "method appropriate for Japanese society".
To play devil's advocate, I find that the people who most often tell me I won't be able to get something done in Japan are other, experienced, foreigners. These people are not idiots or narrow-minded. In many cases they have enjoyed great success in Japan. In fact, their advice might be based on their own failed efforts to achieve the same goal.
But Japan does change. The pace of change can be small but the cumulative effect can be substantial and what was undoubtedly the wrong approach before can become the right approach. And it can work in the reverse direction too so something that was easy to achieve as an outsider becomes more difficult. Whoever finds that out first can get things done.
I don't think for a moment that every approach will work in Japan but a "method appropriate for Japanese society" is not set in stone and confrontation certainly has its place, especially when you are trying to create change.
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Postby AssKissinger » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:48 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again Debito is a big dick. The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.
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Postby tetsujin gaijin » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27 pm

The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


Just like "no negros allowed", huh?
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Postby AssKissinger » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:56 pm

tetsujin gaijin wrote:
The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


Just like "no negros allowed", huh?


Comparing the life of FG's to blacks during the civil rights struggle in America is outrageous.
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Postby Big Booger » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:12 pm

AssKissinger wrote:
tetsujin gaijin wrote:
The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


Just like "no negros allowed", huh?


Comparing the life of FG's to blacks during the civil rights struggle in America is outrageous.


How so? I see parallels through the parallels.. :D
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Postby cstaylor » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:26 pm

AssKissinger wrote:
tetsujin gaijin wrote:
The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


Just like "no negros allowed", huh?
Comparing the life of FG's to blacks during the civil rights struggle in America is outrageous.

Murder is still murder, whether you're killing 6 million in Europe or one on the street.

We went over this before: business owners enter into a social contract when catering to the general public. If they want to restrict people by race, they need to make the place "members only" with real membership, not just "hey, you're Japanese-looking, come on in".

If the restaurants, onsens, hotels, etc... don't like it, then tear up your license to do business.... oh wait, then they can't serve anybody.
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Postby AssKissinger » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:26 pm

The main difference is that blacks were terrorized on a daily basis in America and we aren't.
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Postby cstaylor » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:29 pm

AssKissinger wrote:The main difference is that blacks were terrorized on a daily basis in America and we aren't.
Sure, we aren't lynched (unlike the koreans were in 1923), but is still makes life difficult when you can't get an apartment due to the color of your skin. :roll:
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Postby kotatsuneko » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:06 pm

I used the same comparison several times myself when asked what it was like in Japan (tho just as a general comparison, the emphasis being on the psychological impact, being refused to banks, police checks etc)

A lot of what Debito does is worthwhile, I feel, hell theres not many other people out there trying is there?

I actually visited that same onsen, and they approached me even before I reached the entrance and spoke in terrible engrish, I replied in rather curt hokkaido ben and entered the building, they must have asked me 3 times did i know the "rules" and even followed me and watched me wash before bathing

the water was shit btw, and the outside bath was tiny, at least it was snowing, which was nice..

At least I got to see the large (tho strangely located) love hotel that take chan owns..
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Postby maraboutslim » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:55 pm

See, the issue was behavior, not the color of your skin or your citizenship status. They were concerned that you may not know the way to behave like a Japanese. I'm sure the Onsen felt the same way about Debito, and he proved them right the second he opened his mouth in a way no Japanese would have.
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Postby Big Booger » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:09 am

maraboutslim wrote:See, the issue was behavior, not the color of your skin or your citizenship status. They were concerned that you may not know the way to behave like a Japanese. I'm sure the Onsen felt the same way about Debito, and he proved them right the second he opened his mouth in a way no Japanese would have.


then why in the hell don't they write down the rules in Engrish? If they are that concerned?
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Postby maraboutslim » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:16 am

Big Booger wrote:then why in the hell don't they write down the rules in Engrish? If they are that concerned?


Maybe because it's just easier to exclude .1% of their potential clients (or is .01%?) than have to go to a bunch of trouble of writing it in every possible language.

Bottom line is that 1% of the population should not have the right to try to tell the other 99% what they can and can't do, unless it rises to the level of life and death. Not being able to go to one specific onsen, or having to show your ID at the airport are not life and death issues. Not renting an apartment to a gaijin is getting close to the level that one should persue change: but it should be done by campaigns to show the Japanese that gaijin can live civily, quietly, take their shoes off, and so on instead of by legal campaigns forcing landlords to accept f-ed gaijin.
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Postby omae mona » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:48 pm

maraboutslim wrote:Bottom line is that 1% of the population should not have the right to try to tell the other 99% what they can and can't do, unless it rises to the level of life and death.

Whether it "should" be this way or not, in many countries (such as the U.S.) the law does give 1% of the population the right to tell the other 99% what to do. The U.S. constitution protects rights of minorities, even if 99% of the population wants to kill them, for example. The U.S. does not simply run on majority rule. I believe the SCOTUS has often used these equal protection principles to decide in favor of mandating handicap-accessible facilities (not just government, but private too), etc.

Whether any of this applies to Japan or not, I have no idea.

As much as I hate the idea of anybody discriminating on the basis of race or nationality, I personally have never felt I had the right to be treated equally in Japan. I'm not a citizen. Are those legal protections supposed to apply to visitors? If I were a Japanese citizen I would sure be ticked off if I were treated unfairly. I believe that Debito was not a citizen when the original event took place, by the way.

All the hearsay I've seen points to a trend that if you go in and act like the Japanese and speak perfect (or maybe even just good) Japanese, you tend to get equal treatment regardless of skin color. Anybody have stories to the contrary?
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'Debito Arudou' loses his Soapland Suit

Postby tomasurii » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:18 pm

Damn, this is supposed to be attached to the post about the onsen owner suit. Can't delete it. Anyhow -

The exclusion from businesses may be about failure to manifest Japanese behavior, but when the class of people not comforming to Jp behavior is almost all gaijin, then the exclusion seems pretty unfair to me. Whether the distinction is about behavior or race, the exclusion has an unreasonable impact on foreigners or naturalized citizens.
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Postby kotatsuneko » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:58 am

yeh, walking inyo ufj's sapporo branch, wearing a new paul smith suit and carrying £10k and being told by the guardoman they dont change £- a lie, putting said wad away and pulling out $3k and being told, no dollars either I called for the manager got both their names and complained to the head office

sapporo is a nice city, but the ppl are assholes..

most of the places near that onsen have russian signs btw..and its advertised on tv a lot, maybe debito "targetted" it?
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Postby Andocrates » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:50 am

omae mona wrote:
maraboutslim wrote:Bottom line is that 1% of the population should not have the right to try to tell the other 99% what they can and can't do, unless it rises to the level of life and death.

Whether it "should" be this way or not, in many countries (such as the U.S.) the law does give 1% of the population the right to tell the other 99% what to do. The U.S. constitution protects rights of minorities, even if 99% of the population wants to kill them, for example. The U.S. does not simply run on majority rule. I believe the SCOTUS has often used these equal protection principles to decide in favor of mandating handicap-accessible facilities (not just government, but private too), etc.

Whether any of this applies to Japan or not, I have no idea.

As much as I hate the idea of anybody discriminating on the basis of race or nationality, I personally have never felt I had the right to be treated equally in Japan. I'm not a citizen. Are those legal protections supposed to apply to visitors? If I were a Japanese citizen I would sure be ticked off if I were treated unfairly. I believe that Debito was not a citizen when the original event took place, by the way.

All the hearsay I've seen points to a trend that if you go in and act like the Japanese and speak perfect (or maybe even just good) Japanese, you tend to get equal treatment regardless of skin color. Anybody have stories to the contrary?


People don't change on their own, something makes them change, usually the courts. It takes time but it has a trickle down effect.

If you had an onsen in America, you wouldn't refuse entry to Black People, not because you were afraid of a law-suit but because you respect their human rights. Well, go back 50 years and you wouldn't think twice about it. That change was forced on us but it was for the good. Don't deny Japan the chance to get rid of their institutionalized racism, it's way overdue. This stuff is good for them, keeps things in the news and keeps people thinking about it.
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Postby Big Booger » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:42 am

I know one thing, I was refused service in Umeda (Osaka) at an udon restaurant, so I and my group made a fuss. So they decided to go ahead and serve me. Right before it came, we got up and left. I could see her bringing the items I'd ordered.

They even tried to make me pay for it.. I laughed as hard as I could and went on to some other place. :D Fuck them.. my money spends just as easily elsewhere.

What would be funny is to protest outside of these places with a lot of other fucked gaijin, with signs and shit. Call the mass media, and get them down (if they'd come at all). I think that would be a riot and might change the attitudes of a business owner.

Imagine the US/UK/Oz, etc.. refusing service to "orientals" because they are asian...

Discrimination is discrimination even if it is 1% or .0001%... And my point about the language issue is, if indeed it is the language issue, having an Engrish, Chinese, or Russian sign up, would solve the problem.

It has to be a hatred toward foreigners. And citizen or no citizen, discrimination is the same. We should treat all people equally regardless.
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Postby maraboutslim » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:13 am

Big Booger wrote: Right before it came, we got up and left. I could see her bringing the items I'd ordered.


Gee, that's a great way to get them to want to serve Gaijin in their establishment, huh? You really showed them how we're just as harmless and capable of proper behavior as the locals, huh?

That's the problem with this stuff: the offended gaijin is always thinking about me, me, me and not the best way to improve the situation for the future. Debito's court battles might help - or they might simply convince the Japaense that gaijin are a big pain in the ass. One thing is for sure: there is an Udon-ya owner who is already convinced of that.
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Postby Andocrates » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:15 am

Big Booger wrote:I know one thing, I was refused service in Umeda (Osaka) at an udon restaurant, so I and my group made a fuss. So they decided to go ahead and serve me. Right before it came, we got up and left. I could see her bringing the items I'd ordered.



Well, that really helped the cause :o
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Postby AssKissinger » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:34 am

Right before it came, we got up and left. I could see her bringing the items I'd ordered.

They even tried to make me pay for it.. I laughed as hard as I could and went on to some other place. Fuck them.. my money spends just as easily elsewhere


:rofl: Good Job BIG BOOGER!!! What a fuckin' smoke :lol: :lol: . But now they'll really never serve foreigners but I say fuck them I wouldn't want to eat their shit food anyway.


Yall, Booger totally did the right thing. They were cunts so they deserved to get fucked! Who fucking cares if it turns them off to future foreigners. They didn't like us from the get-go so fuck them!

That's the problem with this stuff: the offended gaijin is always thinking about me, me, me and not the best way to improve the situation for the future
Oh fuck that. We don't need a fucking Dr Rev Martin Luther King Jr here for God's sake!



If you had an onsen in America, you wouldn't refuse entry to Black People, not because you were afraid of a law-suit but because you respect their human rights.
In Japan Town in San Francisco they tried to make sento type bath houses but they got infested with queers. They wanted a little space where they could enjoy their culture but when they went to the bath everybody was butt-fucking each other. They tried to make it Japanese only but no no no thanks to the liberal 'we gotta have everybody everywhere all the time love love love' all the bath houses were ruined for the Japanese people. It's fucking BULLSHIT. It has nothing in common with the desegregation of the American south.

Debitou is a dick because being refused to be served is not a problem is Japan. It's very rare. Quit pretending it's the civil rights movement, it's not. You all seem to wish it was but it isn't. The problems are different here and fighting a struggle trying to mimic America's civil rights fight is stupid and even immoral and bad for the welfare of foreign people in Japan.

Well, that really helped the cause
There is no cause.
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Postby Big Booger » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:46 am

I say if they don't serve you it's their loss.. fuck em'. I know I didn't set the trend for future gaijins in a good light at that umeda restaurant, but I had waited well over 1 hour.. if not an hour and a half, while the others in my party (all Japanese) were served. The really fucked thing was they served me beer, but not food... I thought that was really fucking odd...

So lesson learned. Next time, I will just get up and walk out. But at that time I thought that restaurant needed to be taught a lesson.
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Postby cstaylor » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:34 pm

I wouldn't worry about the meal thing... I was having tempura dinner with my wife's family in Yokohama, and they were incredibly slow serving us. My father-in-law did the same thing as BB did.... except he did pay, but only for the food we had already eaten. They were taking 20 minutes between sets (courses?), and he was in a hurry (he had told the waiter he was in a hurry when we first arrived).

Speaking of restaurants, if any of you ever get to Kannai, Yokohama (near the Bay Star's stadium), there's a really good coffee shop called "Kojimaya" that has the best pizza toast I've ever had. Give it a try if you're in the area. :wink:
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Postby kamome » Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:44 pm

I don't think Debito Arudo is trying to be Japan's equivalent of MLK, Jr. He's a friggin' citizen of Japan and has to endure what amounts to tacit Jim Crow laws. At least most of us can escape Japan if we don't like it.

If you want change in Japan, gaiatsu is a good way to go. Debito is employing a version of that (it's internal pressue, but from a former gaijin). And if you want change in Japan, how else are you going to do it? The big problem here is apathy and a "sho-ga-nai" attitude. Raising awareness and exercising your rights is the only way to get anything changed. I say, good for him.
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Postby Cobra » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:16 pm

AssKissinger wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again Debito is a big dick. The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


really??? so you have no problems when in the US blacks werent allowed into white restaurants etc etc etc?

Same thing right?

I believe a business has the right to hire or fire who they want. But they dont have the right to allow entrance based on race. On certain appearacne yes....e.g. if doing to a restaurant and the person is not dressed properly and is a hippy or whatever then in that case they have the right. But not on skin/race whatever.
That is bullshit.
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Postby Cobra » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:23 pm

AssKissinger wrote:
tetsujin gaijin wrote:
The owner of an onsen or any business should be able to refuse whomever he pleases for whatever reasons. It's his fucking place.


Just like "no negros allowed", huh?


Comparing the life of FG's to blacks during the civil rights struggle in America is outrageous.


wtf?? get your head out of your ass AK. givin the opportunity the Japanese would make things much harder for us. Just the fact that they depend on a "clean rep" around the world to do business. That is crap AK!! The black didnt have power to do shit. Us whiteys do. Around the world I mean. But given the opportunity there would be plenty of sick Japanese that would love to fuck us up.

This is the problem. NOW LISTEN UP PEOPLE! when it is a non-white getting the "racist whip" by the white all hell breaks loose. But as soon as old whitey is on the otherside dumbass`s like AK (and there are plenty) dont want to know about it. Fucking amazing!!
Ok look at Zimbabwe what happened there? FA. Ofcoarse there are sanctions but mugabe doenst GAF.
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Postby Cobra » Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:40 pm

Big Booger wrote:I know one thing, I was refused service in Umeda (Osaka) at an udon restaurant, so I and my group made a fuss. So they decided to go ahead and serve me. Right before it came, we got up and left. I could see her bringing the items I'd ordered.

They even tried to make me pay for it.. I laughed as hard as I could and went on to some other place. :D Fuck them.. my money spends just as easily elsewhere.

What would be funny is to protest outside of these places with a lot of other fucked gaijin, with signs and shit. Call the mass media, and get them down (if they'd come at all). I think that would be a riot and might change the attitudes of a business owner.

Imagine the US/UK/Oz, etc.. refusing service to "orientals" because they are asian...

Discrimination is discrimination even if it is 1% or .0001%... And my point about the language issue is, if indeed it is the language issue, having an Engrish, Chinese, or Russian sign up, would solve the problem.

It has to be a hatred toward foreigners. And citizen or no citizen, discrimination is the same. We should treat all people equally regardless.


well done with that restaurant. good thinking. I would not leave straight away. but then again i would not eat and pay for their shit.

I went to a Milky Way with a mate. This skinny little J guy in the next table stared and continued to stare even when I looked over at him. I didnt know what to do.....I was unsure if he was starring to be a cunt or what. Anyhow I smiled at him and winked. Anyhow he looked away and laughed at these two middle aged chicks he was with saying "arent gaijin scarey". With that I was that close to getting up and smashing the living fuck out of this cunt. My mate (1/2 whitey 1/2 Japanese) helped me to calm down. Unfortunately due to my business and life in Japan I am unable to do shit unless ofcoarse in self defence. This guy didnt know how close he came to living in hospital for the next fucking 12 months.

That is the other thing. I think Japanese are pretty naive. In other words stupid. They do shit like that. Also like refusing people.
I tell you those same people dont want to fuck up in my country with the wrong whitey.

I have said this in the past to people and perhaps on this very board and to the real estate agent that refused an apartment (and later gave it to me.....actually this happened twice to me and I again ended up getting it) and that is that the Japanese have no right to be racist to whitey. I mean for fuck sake if it wasnt for us they would still be playing in their rice fields. Life would be TOUGH. They would not have a refrigerator to cool their fish....a car to enjoy their drives.....no ketai....no computer.....no nothing. I like and respect most Japanese. I think many of them are great people. But for those that want to get racist with me ill get racist with them and FUCKING WIN.
For the record they have no right to deny to any race.
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